Welcome to the Human Capital Watch this month where we'll be featuring the evolving role of the CHRO in the boardroom. I'm thrilled to be joined by my co-authors today, Andrew Jones from the ESG Center and Matt Rosenbaum from the Human Capital Center. This is a joint collaboration across both the ESG and Human Capital Center as well as Europe, where we explore the evolving role of the CHRO, both with management teams and with the Board. And for our members today, we'd like to let you know that to get credits, to earn credits rather, I'm having an issue, OK? Just. Hit the next button. OK, let's see. I apologize, we are. Maybe someone else can move it. I just want to remind our members today that as a benefit of joining us webcast, you're approved for HRCI, SHERM and CPE credits. Just click on the icon picture to sign up and receive credits and respond to the attendance verification pop up throughout the program. Yeah, I'm. Having trouble too. OK. So as we are moving forward, we are going to cover the following questions today. So how the Chr role has shifted from functional specialist to enterprise leader? What are board and CEO expectations for CHROS and what are the common derailers that undermine CHRO board engagement? And some practical thoughts on how CE OS and boards should engage CHROS and what CHROS can do. And then we'll close out today with what are the future opportunities for enhanced CHRO board engagement? Before we jump into the content, I am going to quickly highlight our methodology. We did a thorough investigation of this topic that we started back in Q4 of 2024. We have seen some movement on the role of the CHRO and what we've seen within the management team operations of organizations and the increase of human capital being at the forefront of board agendas. So we decided that we were going to take a look at what was exactly happening in partnership with our colleagues Andrew Jones and with our European colleagues. We did in depth interviews with US and European public companies where we spoke to CHROSCEOS and board members and we also interviewed 55 corporate secretaries and equivalent at public companies and that was really important to bolster our qualitative data that we gather through all of these interviews. And perhaps I can just add that a clarification point there. I think this is really important. So yeah, we we surveyed over 50 corporate secretaries, all their equivalents at public companies in in in the US and in Europe, but primarily in in the US as a respondents come from. And just wanted to add that the corporate secretary is obviously a really key governance role, right? It's responsible for supporting the board, ensuring compliance, managing board meetings and materials and kind of serving as a bridge between board and management. So the reason, the reason I guess we we did that is recognizing that corporate secretaries are sort of behind the scenes architects and therefore are really ideally positioned to comment on, you know, which executive positions they're seeing more regularly in the board, how they're engaging, how boards are engaging on all kinds of topics, including human capital topics. So we'll see. We'll see some insights from that survey. Throughout Now I know why we included you in this research. So important to get a sense of how the board operates, the mechanics of it, the governance perspective, as well as the increase in human capital expertise. I know you're going to jump right into that as we jump into the CHRO changing landscape, the management team and corporate governance. So with that, I'm going to hand this off to you. Yeah, I can take, I know we had planned to do a do an initial poll question here. I think, I think we're having a couple technical issues with the platform that we're currently trying to address. Perhaps while we why do perhaps we can move on and talk about some of the some of the high level insights actually talk about some of the high level insights from the survey that I talked about, right. And put this, put this put this topic into some more context, right. So as I, as I mentioned, we conducted a survey of many corporate secretaries and one of the questions we asked was it was quite blunt, right? It was that simply asking how over the past three years has the CHRO at your company become, has their engagement with the board changed, right. Had a bunch of options. So that's significantly more engaged, moderately more engaged, remaining the same. And the overwhelming response we actually received from that was, yes, chros have become more engaged. I believe it's about 70% said more engaged, many of them said significantly more engaged, right? And there's many reasons why that is. And obviously we over the past few years, an obvious reason comes to mind, which is the pandemic, right? Obviously, obviously the pandemic reshaped many, many ideas and, and concepts around, around workforce strategy, around culture, around technology around and obviously I think in doing so, elevated human capital risks and opportunities of the board agenda. And that's been a key driver. I don't know if you guys wanted to add anything more to that before we move on, because I think it's, I think it's important to put this into context, right? Why is the Chr showing it more in the board? Yeah, for the CHRO interviews that I did stood out as 2020 being the kind of demarcation point. I think there were, as we saw with many other pandemic related trends, the there were trends beforehand that were accelerated and expanded because of what happened. Just bringing the importance of the workforce to the forefront, the reliance and human capital, some of the issues around well-being in other examples like that, that were really affecting the workforce and elevated the CHROS role and also just the role of HR in general and supporting that. And to add on to Matt's point, I think it was also really interesting to take a look at the data that we have in the report about the board composition changing over the last from 2018 through 2025, both at the S&P 500 and the Russell 3000. That human capital expertise is seeing some presence on the board. Yeah. Yeah. And perhaps I can talk to that a bit longer and you can you can see this in in the actual report. And this is really interesting right. At the same time and I think for many of the same reasons, right that we've discussed that as the CHROI guess has come up has become more elevated and visibility and influence because of some of these broader I guess systemic factors or structural factors or longer term factors. At the same time, the the corporate board itself has been actively upskilling in human capital rights, been actively adding KHC expertise now and actually quite significantly. And when you look at US public companies in particular. So you know, as Rita mentioned, whether you look at the Russell 3000, which is kind of the broader sphere or you look at the S&P 500, which is a subset and kind of the 500 largest industry leaders. You see just in the last six or seven years, it's more than double really in terms of the amount of independent directors that have disclosed H expertise. And this, this is interesting, right, because it's also it's part of a broader ongoing, I guess, imperative of companies trying to refresh their boards rather diversify. It's not just human capital, right? We've been, we've been seeing increased skills in AI and technology, in cybersecurity, ESG, sustainability. But I think it does reflect this increasing recognition that yes, talent, culture, workforce, these are seen at the very top of companies as, as risks and opportunities and business critical issues in a way they might not have been as recently as sort of, you know, a decade ago. So it's a interest. These have happened in parallel, right? And I guess I think if the board has more individuals on it who have human capital backgrounds, human capital expertise, human capital skills, it also creates a more conducive environment, right, a more receptive environment for CHRO because there's more knowledge, there's more awareness, there's more buy in. So it's it's interesting that these these trends, I guess they reflect these broader drivers and this we see them playing out in these different spheres. So it's really, really important, really important to have that. Yeah. This isn't just the CHRO that is being lifted, it's the whole company is being kind of reshaped. And as you think about that, I'm just curious how have we seen and we have our data on this, how have the different committees been impacted? Really good question. Actually before I comment on that, just just to add, we also had from the survey we used to simply we had a more basic question, a more fundamental question was just how often does the CHRO. Show show up. At the full meeting of the board and and how has that changed over the last years? And again, I think following on from one of our previous points, yes, actually what we're now seeing is it obviously there is a lot of different companies and we should be wary of making sweeping generalizations. But typically you're actually seeing Chros attending most or even every full meeting of the board. But actually according to our survey, more companies than are not, you know, and again, I think that's a relatively recent in terms of the specific committees, I think it's interesting obviously as I think we all know boards have boards have a few committees that are like core fundamental committees like compensation, audit, nominating and governance balls. They may have depending on the company and its needs may have additional committees on risk and and strategy and and ESG and so on. I think the CHRO has had a long standing history of really engaging with boards through the compensation which which which obviously reflects kind of the core responsibilities and that that continues. Actually what we found in our survey was Chr is a pretty much ever presence at the compensation committee, right? Also showing up a little bit in the in the nominating and governance committee, which is a really cool committee. Not quite seeing them show up elsewhere yet in, in big numbers. But one of the things I think we heard through our through our work, right and in this project and interviewing CEO and board members is how much opportunity there is for Chr is to participate more in a particularly places like audit and risk where we see some, you know, some really core business discussions around around strategy. I don't know if you guys had similar things in in your engagements for this project. Go ahead, Matt. So one example that came to my mind was one of the companies talked to the Cho and she was saying that the they had had a compensation committee for quite some time that she was engaging with. But they recently expanded that to include more broad human capital issues rather than kind of a narrow focus on CEO and executive comp. And I think that is something that also might be a possibility rather than necessarily the Cho speaking to other committees, just expanding what the remit of the compensation committee is. This is this is this is such a great point is that. And yeah, I think we've we've heard and be interesting to track this data in the coming years, right. Compensation committee is being rebranded as compensation and something particularly compensation and talent. And I think it kind of just reflects isn't it kind of, I guess it's just, it's just formalizing that increased remit of human capital and the Chr are beyond. Yeah, but it's not just executive pay anymore. It's, it's, it's strategy, it's talent, it's DEI, it's culture, it's, it's succession, it's, it's all of the above, right? So it's a really interesting trend. And as we kind of think about that trend, the what really I, I, I'm curious what both of you think, but does the CEO drive the engagement of the CHRO with the different board committees or is it the board calling for it? Where's the push pull? Oh, it's a really except. Go ahead if you had any insights. Oh, just I was going to say, I think this is something we highlight in the report is the the need for a CHRO to have equal remain not equal, but strong influence in partnership with both the CEO and the Board. So there is a A2 by two kind of chart that we have. I'm so glad you. Mentioned that I think it was quite, it looks quite nice and kind of lays out the, you know, maybe the legacy role of CHROS has been in the bottom left quadrant where they have relatively low engagement with the CEO and relatively low engagement with the board, kind of sticking to the your strict functional expertise within HR. And then you can, you know, see situations where people Ch OS may have great partnerships with their CEO, but relatively little engagement with the board, which is going to limit their influence overall. Perhaps less rare, but also possible is a situation where the CHRO has a good relationship with the board, but not necessarily with the CEO, which also very much hinders what they can and cannot do. So you really want to see a CHRO moving into that next level high impact role in the top right where they have equal levels of partnership engagement, strong relationships with both the CEO and the board. And I think that that's a challenge because it's a new, it's a new calling for a lot of CHOS. I love how you say it's a new calling and the way that we were able to really, I would say, flesh out these findings and this 2 by 2. Is this unique view of how we did our research that we spoke not only CHOS but also CEO's and board members and that was enabled us to crystallize how the Cho can have such impact on the boardroom and this partnership between both the CEO and the board. And you really gave us a preview of what some of those derailers could potentially be. So moving on. Just add that and I can highly recommend when people look at the report, look at the two by two. I think it's a really nice distillation of some of our key things. I just wanted to add, yeah, it kind of follows on Matt points and we heard a lot when we spoke to CEO and boards this kind of this question of like alignment and the risk of misalignment, right? I actually think we've heard of Chr OS that are very aligned with the CEO, but but may not have much presence in the board or even be isolated. And we also heard of some Chr OS that are really borderline, but maybe for various reasons, you know, the personal structural less, less alignment to see. I think it's just, it's just a tension, isn't it? I think just really worth reinforcing that this this dual alignment is really needed for Chr OS to become what we refer to in the in the report is, you know, next generation high impact CHRS, which I think is an aspiration. It's a work in progress. But clearly these are it's not the Beale and end all right, but clearly relationships with the CEO and board are absolutely critical. I think we'll go on and hear more about what that looks like. Yes. And I like how you said it's aspirational, it this really is. And that that I think is important as we continue through our findings through the rest of this discussion. All right, so let's move on to and for our audience members, we apologize that our slides are, oh, they're seeing. It so yeah, we cannot see it, but they're. No. OK, excellent. All right. So our next topic that we're going to take a little bit of time to explore and Matt's going to spend some time on that, the CEO and board expectations for the CHRO. So we talked a little bit about that in our two by two, but why don't you give us some more clarity around this shift from functional specialist to enterprise leader and what we mean by that? Perfect. And Alex, if you just move on to the next slide, that'd be great. So one of the things that we highlighted in the report is just the need for CHROS to be able to lead a variety of different initiatives and to be that high impact CHRO. And, and so some examples of that might be things like leading workforce strategy, which may be more traditionally within the remit of the Chr, but also things like leading M&A and and managing those integrations. So we have on the, the side that you all are seeing, but we are not quite seeing yet the, the pieces, the pie pieces indicate things that, you know, in this aspirational role, a Chr will be able to do and do well. And then the outer edge are things that they're going to to need in order to be able to do those things. So that's the other strong collaboration with the rest of the C-Suite. It's a strong partnership with the CEO, which we'll talk about in a second. But also one of the things that came up frequently in especially conversations with board members was the need for advanced business and financial acumen. And one of the Ch Ros I talked to highlighted that, you know, she had come up within a business unit leading, you know, owning APNL and, and having that experience versus maybe rising within the ranks of HR. And I think that's something that, anecdotally at least, is becoming more common to, to have people who know their way around a business unit, you know, have led other functions and, and truly are full enterprise leaders rather than narrow HR functional specialists who have, who have risen to the top of that domain. So I think that's something that's, again, it's new, it's aspirational, It's not easy by any means. I think the common refrain in my interviews at Chapter Rose was just how difficult it can be to have all these different qualities, all these different skills, all those different knowledge. You know, you need to be able to talk about how, for instance, regulations or new policy is going into effect, new bills going into effect are are going to affect your operating models. And in various countries around the world, things like how an immigration, you know, flows are going to be crucially important, especially as we go through these next few years. You know, given that the the first Trump administration like H1B visas, you know, got got more denials than had another administration. So there's going to be situations that are going to call on chapter rose to display skill set that they may not have traditionally had to display. And I want to focus on a little bit more on that C-Suite collaboration, which came up as something that was incredibly important. So Alex, if you can move to that slide, please, that would be great. The challenge there is there's obviously a need for the chapter to talk to work with, well with all members of the C-Suite. But a few roles that came up consistently in our interviews, we're partnering with the CFO, the CLO, the COO and then obviously the CEO. So some examples of what that might entail would be working with the CFO on under, you know, how do we finance, what are human capital initiatives are going to be, how does that affect our business strategy moving forward? The CLO, it might be related to DEI disclosures or other other elements that are, you know, potentially how new regulations are going to affect the the workforce moving forward and how to account for that. And with the CEO, obviously there's these consistent operational needs that that need to be addressed and and partner closely with the CHRO. But I think obviously, as we've been talking about, the CEO is the the most important relationship just because on some level the Ch row serves at the pleasure of the CEO and you have to be able to work effectively together to really make the fruit of that C-Suite collaboration come alive. So that was something, those were some things that stood out in our interviews. But anything that stood out from from you, all that you want to add? Yeah, I mean, I think beautifully put, Matt and yeah, I think we did kind of consistently hear that these these C-Suite functional roles in particular kind of stood out not, not to say that the situation be collaborating across the broader. So you. So I mean something I wanted to touch on quickly, this was the CLO, the Chief legal officer and might be showing my own bias as a, you know, ESG specialist. So I just think it's so interesting because the CLO obviously plays such a critical role in, in the governance of the company, right, in terms of risk, legal, risk management, advising on legal and governance matters, managing like compliance and litigation, right? And I think I just in today's environment where we have such uncertainty around these issues, there's such a huge need and also such like an opportunity for like a really effective CLOCHRO partnership, right? And then many of the, I think many of the risks companies are facing today do kind of like span legal and human capital, right? And I think that's only going to continue when we see some of the headwinds that we currently see this year, right? So I just just wanted to kind of under score that a little bit that I'm. So glad you mentioned that and I'm just thinking about the few board members that we spoke to and kind of their role that what they anticipate that the CHRO&CLO relationship is going to be so important as we move forward. And that was really eye opening. That was surprising to hear that also just it's important Matt talked about some Chr OS that he interviewed that came up through the business and not while that is certainly good and we certain and we have seen some CHROS that were also in the GC role. For those CHROS that that kind of come up through the functional area of HR. What the CEO can do to expand the expertise and remit to really lean into the commercial business acumen is to think about how you can have strategic partnerships between these functional leaders, the COO, the CFO, the CLO, and what projects can they work on where they can get exposure to financial decision making, to some of that risk making. And that's something that the CEO most certainly can do, and the board can encourage that. Yeah, it's such a great point, isn't it? Yeah. There's obviously a lot of this falls on the CHRO to, you know, I guess be proactive and gain exposure to usual language. But clearly the CEO and the board have such an important role to play, I guess in I guess kind of making those expectations clear, right? And almost kind of, I guess, empowering for a better word and setting that tone. And yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think we were talking, weren't we about sort of, yeah, gaining more business acumen and gaining more commercial expertise. How do you actually do that in practice? Right. So see it's, it's tricky and you, it's, we need to be pragmatic. I think one way is simply working more closely with the CFO and really get seeing the day-to-day operational and financial decision making and and learning that sort of the terminology and and so on. So I think this is a really critical point to take from the work. And we actually are going to get to this at the end. But when we think about what was predicted for future kind of work, so both the multi generational workforce and workforce automation and AI, these are two concrete areas where you can have partnership with the CFO and the CHRO and the CLO and the CHRO. So we'll spend a little bit of time and it's Matt back to you. Sounds good. Alex. If you can move to slide 19, that'd be great. So one of the things that stood out to us as we go in through our interviews was as as kind of a list of common derailers that affect organizations and kind of prevent this CHROCEO board partnership from being as effective as it potentially could be. So I want to just walk through a couple of those briefly. I think the first and foremost one of the things that stood out to us was the need for the board to view the CHRO as someone who brings a valuable set of, you know, skills and expertise to the Bose board conversations. Because I think one element that came up consistently was HR in the past has often been viewed as, you know, potentially more of a cost center rather than a value creator. There may be more emphasis on the benefits administration and other elements like that, and some board members may still have a relatively outdated view of what HR does in general. But I think it's also something that can be attended on the CHRO to kind of prove that they have that capacity in the 1st place. And we'll talk a little bit about how they can do that. But it's important to get the board on the CHRO side and have the board advocating for the CHRO and, and valuing their expertise. And if you don't have that, then you're going to be fundamentally limited in what the CHRO can do and accomplish. Another thing that came up frequently was friction with the CEO, specifically over CEO succession planning. And it's obviously a little bit of a delicate dance. There's always going to be a sensitivity there. But one of the things that stood out to me at least was how differently some of the organizations we talked to, you know, these are all large multinationals, multibillion dollar in annual revenue, all of that. But even within that, there are some organizations that really take CEO succession planning very more seriously or maybe more as a formal long term investment that they're making where they're starting 8 to 10 years out versus some of the other folks I talked to said it's more of a three to five year range. And this also goes back to the point we were just making about how do you develop the CHROS that you need for the future. They're one of the people I talked to said that every time someone gets promoted to VP, she talks with them and says, OK, from day one, who are your successors going to be like? How are you developing that pipeline? And I think if organizations take that approach as well to CEO succession planning, the the just the level of detail and conscious attention to how are we, you know, grooming these potential successors? I think that's a critical element, but it also isn't vital for the board to clarify to the CEO pretty much from day one, this is our responsibility, not yours. I think where you run into a lot of trouble is where the CEO may have the expectation that they are going to control the process or be the one to pick their successor. And this may be more of a challenge in the US where you have a more, you know, frequently you have the chairman and the board of the chairman of the board and the CEO or the same person. But it's important for the board to step in and say this is our decision, not necessarily yours, and and to set that tone early just to make it as clear and avoid as much of that friction as possible, rather than coming in maybe years later and saying actually now we're trying to step in and find your successor. And that can lead to a lot of issues. And, and just to add, yeah, just wanted to really just under score. Yeah, I think, wow, what a great point this is and how nicely put I think. Yeah, it's only, and you're right, it does become complex because when the CEO is also on the board, right? But I think boards have such a big role to play in just making clear that succession is a governance responsibility, right? It's a core board obligation. And I think this is just, yeah, it's those parameters have to be set and set early and set clearly, right? Yeah, one of the most provocative comments I heard, but I thought was largely correct is one of the Chr, as I talked to said if the board doesn't have a successor named or ready to go as soon as the old CEO is is announced that they're stepping down, that is a failure of the board. Like that is how much in her opinion it was, that's how vital. Like this is one of the core roles of the board. Right. And good hygiene from what you said was in some of the organizations that you spoke to is that this starts way below the CEO and that the general C-Suite, it goes down to the VP level and organizations that have a strong process around this are in they're better position to manage this in general. Absolutely. Another kind of derailer or a thing that can lead this astray is is when the CEO limits in the Chr OS interactions. Before. And what we encountered, at least in the interviews that we had, was more of an situation where the CEO isn't necessarily fully limiting what the Cho can do. But there may be elements of the CEO telling the Cho like if you're talking to the board, I need to know what you're talking about, I need to know what you're saying, I need to potentially provide my additional input as kind of follow up to that conversation. Which? Is again going back to the delicate dance of what the Cho needs to do. On the one hand, as one of the Cho I talked to put it, you don't want to have any surprises. You want the CEO to know what you're talking about, at least in a general way. So they're prepared for any conversations with the board. And important to note, everyone agrees if there's some sort of ethical violation or something related to CEO performance that's coming up, that obviously stays between the Cho and the board. But there's a wide variety of other topics where it can be seen as as maybe potentially freezing those conversations or, or limiting them. If the CEO is telling the CHRO, hey, I need to know what you're talking about. And that's always the challenges. How do you ensure the CEO knows what they need to know in order to, to do their job well, but also maintain that independence and tell the board what they need to know. And there may be times where CE OS, you know, need to be delicate or how they navigate and make sure they're sensitive to the reality of they may feel like they've given the CHRO clearance to go and have a good relationship with the board, but the CHRO may not feel that way. So it's important to, to be sensitive to that. And then obviously there are instances in which the CEO is directly constraining what the CHRO can do with the board. And that is much more of an issue. I think the the challenge there is it's something that hopefully will not come up. But if it does come up, it's a very difficult situation for the Cho and really limits what they can do when it comes to promoting their strategy to the board, with the board and the CEO working together in concert the last before. We go ahead yes, So what in some of our board discussions and this is so important that we're talking about this especially when we're thinking about this next generation high impact CHRO, this aspirational view. A number of the board members that we spoke to felt that not only did this minimize the role of the CHRO and like impact the legitimacy, but that the conversation needs to be Co created. And it's not only with the CHRO, but it's with other C-Suite members as well. Is there anything you wanted to add on that? No, I think you've you've really put that nicely. I think this was this was a key. I mean the the phase delicate dancing is. Such. A nice one, right, because this did come up a lot in a lot of our discussions, right? I think we've chros and with CEO's and with board members, right? I think there was definitely a recognition of sort of, yeah, this is a sensitive subject. I think it's obviously a delicate subject for all C-Suite members. Obviously, all C-Suite members in their own way have to kind of navigate the dynamics of working across the C-Suite, working with the CEO, working with the board. But I think for the Chr, it might be particularly acute. And I think partly perhaps that's just because of there is that perception of the Cho isn't there as being like the kind of right hand of the CEO and being the strategic advisor. And at the same time, as we've heard also is in the process of taking on an evolving and more influential and impactful role in the boardroom. So it just it just throws up a lot of sensitivity and different companies have different approaches. There's always going to be a kind of personality and relationship and political aspect to this. But but yeah, I think I think ultimately normally it comes down to perhaps cultivating trust, you know, cultivating that authenticity. Yeah. And also I think Chr is having to make perhaps some very delicate judgment calls on when to align with the CEO and when to sort of not, right? And I think that's always going to be on a case by case basis. But it's all part all. I think this is very much part and parcel of making it to that next level right, is being able to successfully navigate this in a way that I guess alliance and build partnership with both both sides. And I think a bridge between this and our last derailer. No, no. Is this, this, this idea and notion of independence that we explored throughout our research that came up in our CHRO summit with two different CHROS that talked about, you know what, what type? If there was independence, like what would that look like? And we're talking this is directly this particular derailer I think directly talks to kind of that role independence and the whether we, you know, you need it to be formalized or not and had to go about that. Any thoughts on that? I think, I think we can maybe return to that perhaps later when we discuss a little bit. But I agree that the kind of this question of independence was a really was a really challenging one, right, wasn't it? Because I think when we first set out on this project, we were keen to explore actually is there, yeah, as you said, is there an opportunity for the situated have a more formalized role even perhaps obviously be different in practice, but perhaps a kin conception to the sort of the more formalized fiduciary role that the CFO has and the CLO has. I think as we moved into this project, we came to realize that perhaps was a that wasn't the right lens, right. But the Cho does have, the Cho does have a fundamentally different kind of relationship with the CEO and a different kind of relationship with the board and different kind of obligations, right. So I think what we learned was it became much more down to sort of, I think I don't say personalities, but it came much more down to navigating like the particular nuances and dynamics of your company, your industry, your board, right? That's going to look differently across different companies in a way that cultivates trust, cultivates legitimacy, keeps, keeps, you know, keeps and, and I guess knowing the right moments when to when to a lion and when to when to press right. But I don't think you guys had any more to add to that. Just when I heard from the Chr as I talked to was there was definitely a hesitance to school for formal and you know, how do we formalize this, anything like that. There was a recognition that independence is important, like how do you serve the board well if you can't say what you actually need to say? But the challenge that came up was basically, if you have a good relationship with your CEO and you're in a good situation, then you don't need formalized independence. And if you need formalized independence, you're already cooked because you don't have that. Good relationship. With the CEO, you know, so it's, it's, it's a bit of a rock and a hard place where if you're in a good situation, you don't need it. And if you need it, you probably aren't going to get it. So that was that was one of the main challenges that stood out there. Yeah. And I and I guess talking to CEO's when, when we spoke to CEO's obviously have a great relationship with the CEO, they said, well, why, why would we need any kind of right. They already do, you know. And so it's you're so right. It's it's kind of yes, you don't have it. It's kind of you're already, you're already in a very difficult starting point. If you do have it, it's perhaps taken for granted and has become routine, the exact part of everyday doing business. So I think nicely put, yeah. Yes. But I think that just to hit the last derailer that came up frequently and this ties back to what the board views HR as and the CHRO as is, is the potentially limited business and financial acumen that some Chr OS might have. Again, going back to this is an evolving role. This is a change, you know, over the last several years and a lot of the people in CHRO roles may not have that background or those, you know, that skill set because of what was important 1520 years ago and how, you know, they were coming up to the organization didn't necessarily provide those opportunities. So I think this is again, something where just to touch on what we've been talking about, the CHROS of today may need to prepare their successors in a different way than they were prepared. I love. That, and that's the point. That but yes, as one Cho told me, every day is performance review, you know, every whether it's with the CHCO, the board, other members of the C-Suite, there is a need for the Cho to show that they can contribute and have, you know, the, the insight that they need. Again, because I think of this kind of relatively outdated reputation of what HR might have been and it's still weighs on some of those relationships. So it's important for the Cho to to be able to go above and beyond to demonstrate the value that they bring. I love, I love this point and I because I think you mentioned like, yeah, every day is a performance real. Obviously that's not unique for the Chr, right? But I think you're right that perhaps because of certain perceptions of the role, you know, that may in some cases be embedded from years or decades ago, perhaps it becomes a little bit more clear and a little more acute, right. And I think this point about preparing successes and preparing the next generation of Chr OS it's for these realities, right? And, and perhaps encouraging that exposure to so like, yeah, gaining financial fluency and exposure to some of the core kind of metrics and being data-driven and, and speaking in the language at the enterprise right is just really valuable advice, you know, and, and, and really I think it should be we can just under score that I think. So with that, I think you're going to move on to our next topic, which is really practical recommendations that we have touched upon here, but I think we want to spend a little bit more time getting into some details on that. Yeah. So I think the one of the things we want to talk about is like what can Chr OS boards and CE OS do in order to to create this effective partnership. So Alex, if you can move to slide 21, that would be great. I think the one of the things that we wanted to highlight here is just this visualization of the CEO's Cho and board all need to be working in partnership. It's not something where if you have you know, great CEO's Cho relationship or great CEO board relationship, then everything's going to work the way it could. That can be work well, it can be fine, but I think there is always going to be value from all three of those parties working together. And if you don't have one of them, then you're missing out on, you know, the key insight. So it may be that if you don't have a CHRO that's engaging effectively with the board, for instance, the board isn't getting those key human capital insights that they need in order to make their decisions of, you know, effectively. Or you can have a situation again where the CHRO might have good relations with the board, but there's internal friction with the CEO. So they're not as aligned moving into those board meetings that can be obviously a challenge. So we just wanted to highlight the importance of you need all three to make this work as effectively as it can. And that's again why we think it's so important to push towards that relationship where the CHHRO is working effectively with both the CEO and the board. So with that, Alex, if you can move to Slide 22, just wanted to highlight some of the different ways in which a ACHRO can work to build their relationship with the board. And order to deepen influence and impact. So one of those is the, the need to build in conversations with the board and, and kind of build those relationships, whether that be as part of their formal meetings with the compensation committee or or other, you know, venues in which they might be meeting with board members. But also to trying to find time to meet outside of those formal board meetings, Whether that be calling up board members to get their insight on things or, you know, potentially you want to be at such a level of expertise and seeing as such a valuable asset that the board members are calling you for things in between those conversations at formal board meetings. But the, the other thing that stood out to us was just the, the need to highlight that the board is not necessarily having discussions on human capital at the level that they need to. So this is another area where the Cho can really contribute is, is showing the board taking two board conversations to the next level and ensuring that they're talking about the most important thing. So you maybe not necessarily just looking at, you know, basic and a human capital metrics, for instance, but going beyond that to understanding and what's driving some of these trends, what might be, that's something we need to be aware of and looking forward to. I think another thing that stood out in the conversations I was having with chapter Rose was the importance of educating the board and bring them along, particularly because of how much has changed in the last several years. One, a couple actually Ch Rose I talked with highlighted that board members now, especially if they have not been AC suite executive in the last years or not maintaining that role in another company have may have a difficult time understanding just how much has changed. So it's important to educate them, whether that be, you know, providing additional sessions at formal board meetings or some other Ave. just to really make sure that they understand how the landscape is changing with related topics like DEI, like AI, whether it might, you know, whatever that hot topic might be that applies to that particular context. It's important for the the CHRO to be ensuring the board is having the conversation that they need to be having. Can I, can I just this is a really important point. I just wanted to add insight from last the last few years whenever we've done surveys of not just citrus, but the C-Suite of bad perceptions of the board 11 consistent finding. We've asked when we've asked what would you like to see more of on the board in terms of skills. As you can imagine, different things come up in AI bubbled up last year's, but a really consistent 1 is talent, talent culture, right? I think there is a real appetite across the C-Suite for boards to upskill on HC and that kind of goes back to where we started. That has been an ongoing process, but I just wanted to under score that right there. I think there is this appetite for the boards to do more on human capital and the Chr therefore is such an opportunity to meet that. Moment. Yeah, absolutely. And the last thing that stood out to us from our interviews was that the need for the Chr and the CEO to align on workforce strategy, business, you know, business strategy and how those two come together before they're going into those board conversations. Obviously, there may be some disagreement, there may be some differences of opinion. And it's again, that delicate dance of when do you fall into line and you kind of come present to united front or when do you acknowledge some of the, the different conversations that you're having internally with, with, you know, not just the Chr and the CEO, but the other members of the C-Suite as well. But I think it is important to have as much alignment as possible when you're going into those conversations with the board just to again mitigate some of that potential friction that can arise as we highlight just the importance of the Chapter RO partnership. And so now I wanted to turn over to you to talk about the CEO, some of the things that CEOs can do in order to maximize the effectiveness of this partnership. Thank you. I think we're going to go to the board 1st. Sure. So I believe that should be slide 23, please, 23. Yeah, yeah. So thanks so much. And yeah, I was just going to quickly touch on, I think kind of it's a different lens on some of the same things We can talk about what, what can board directors and boards as a whole specifically do to empower citrus recognizing as we said, it's, it's all three parties I think have an important role to play here. You should be seeing on the screen free boxes. If not, we have free keep free broad points here, right, which is first of all encouraging a direct relationship with CHRO. The second is elevating all discussions on human capital. And the third is empowering the CHRO in succession planning and exec comp. So I'll quickly touch on these and we have, I know we've already been talking a little bit, so I'll try not to repeat what we've already heard, right? But in terms of encouraging a direct relationship with the CHRO, I mean, we've spoke about independence. We spoke about how access to the board is often mediated for the CEO, which can in turn perhaps potentially impede the CHRO. And I just think boards have a really important role to play in making these expectations clear, right, that they want a direct relationship with the CHRO, that a direct relationship is vital for actually effectively tackling some of these key issues around blind spots, around culture, around workforce, around succession. I think boards can just help, but in quite practical ways, right? Maybe that's by scheduling executive sessions with the CHRO, ensuring Chr access is institutionalized, I think is a really a really key point, right? And inviting the Chr to present, right? Or that's on topics such as, obviously then it pulls on the CHRO to I guess demonstrate their legitimacy and credibility and impact to kind of stay in those discussions, right? I think boards have to ultimately help create the space, right? I think that ties quite nicely into the second point on elevating discussions on human capital. This goes to your point, right? The perhaps there may still have been in some corners of companies, in some corners of the sector still an outdated perception of human capital and HR as operational as focused narrowly on issues around headcount and employee engagement survey results, right. I think boards only have to, you have to make it clear like what they want, right, that they do want more substantive data-driven discussions around some of these key issues, some of the key risks, some of the key opportunities, particularly now as we move through such uncertainty and asking the Chr quite clearly for to make that happen, right, where that's providing the data, providing the KPI's, providing the metrics, looking beyond just compensation and the compensation committee to that broader engagement such yeah, the board has such a key role to play here. And then 3rd and finally, I think we've been talking about this a little bit already engaging the CHRO in succession planning and exec comprise. So as we've heard boards, boards need the CHRO to be right at the center of this work, right? They need them to provide the data and the insights around like the bench, the long term pipeline. What is the succession strategy? As you said, Matt, some of the things you heard around it's it's a failure at the board if there isn't already someone in place, the Chr clearly has to help provide that, right. But boards need to think boards can normally involve the CHRO much earlier early on and make it clear that they're seeking their input on whether that's that's readiness timelines, candidates and also yeah, their involvement. I think asking that's quite candid insights and feedback on on compensation strategy as well saying that boards just to wrap this section up, I think there's really practical and and forward-looking ways in which boards can help create the space for Chros. And I think with that perhaps we can there's no more further comments here. We can maybe move on to the CEO perspective, I think is a really important one really. Yes. All right. So we've heard what the CHRO can do and what's important, some practical guidance here. We've heard what the board can do and now we're going to shift to the key leader in slide 24, please, Alex, where the CEO is going to really help drive and bridge all of this. The three points that we have here are they, it is essential that they champion the people strategy to the board. So we've talked about this at length. What does that mean? It's beyond the compensation role and even at the the talent succession planning at the CEO and C-Suite, what does that look like throughout the enterprise and what does the attraction and retention strategy look like throughout the business? So that's something that most certainly they can champion at the management team level in running the business as well as at the board level. And when you think about, we've talked about this at length, but this this trust and creating an open dialogue where there is Co creation of the narrative both at the management team level and at the board level and really allowing for access to the CHRO in areas where they can provide valuable input. And I just want to highlight on culture. Culture is such a nebulous topic and it's often times very hard to describe. And it's so unique to each organization and the value that it has on the brand both internally and externally. And that's something that we have heard throughout our conversations. And when you think about how the board can play a role in that and the CHRO bringing that to the forefront, something to think about. So when you think about talent, attraction, retention, how think about the culture and how important. Go ahead. Perhaps I can add something that just from our survey of corporate that we mentioned, right? We we, we had a whole bunch of questions that one of the questions we asked was in the in the perspective of the corporate secretary. What are the most valuable metrics I see a true could bring to the board discussions, right. And I don't think you'd be surprised to hear, but the top ones were kind of classic metrics right around retention around turnover around around employee engagement scores, but actually quite of not far off beneath that in the kind of next tier results included included culture and specifically like culture index, right. And a way, a way of kind of, I guess to the extent it can be quantifying and, and being clearer on culture in the direction of the culture because. And I think that just sort of in its own little way kind of reflects the, the broader recognition of culture. And you're so right that culture is never less, and we can all be. Sometimes we can slip into talk about culture in these broad terms about defining what we mean. But clearly culture has moved up, moved up the agenda when it comes to the board and the top of the company, however it is defined. Yes. And thank you for the plug for our new research that we're going to be spending some time over the next couple of years looking at what is the culture index look like and how are boards able, How can you quantify that in some way so that you can have some metrics around that? So it's a little bit more concrete. So thank you for that, Matt. Anything to add to that? No, I think that you guys have had it. Great. OK. And then the last one, which is really, really important and I think an insight and a new way of thinking coming out of our research is empowering the Sea Toro as a genuine peer to the C-Suite. And what does that mean exactly? How do you practically do that? We talked, we touched upon this a little bit, but partnering the CHRO with the Cielo or with the CFO and Co, so executive sponsors of projects throughout the enterprise. So they are able to own the financial decisions, are able to own risk decisions when you think about workforce management and things ahead. So I am going to jump to our last insight that we're going to talk about today and that is future opportunities for CHRO board engagement. And Alex, that would be slide 25 that we're going to touch upon. And we asked our corporate secretaries and Andrew certainly jump in here. What workforce related topics do you see gaining more prominence in the Chr board interactions in the next three years? So I'm glad that we kind of put a timeline on this because so much of this is future focus. But we said, OK, what do we think in the next three years is going to impact and the two main topics that kind of percolated up to the top is addressing the generational ifs in the workforce. And I just want to, I'm going to get into that in a minute. And then also the AI and automatic automation impacts on the workforce. And if you take, if we take a look at the next slide Alex, which is 29, let's jump into the generational workforce shifts. You can see the quote here that we have from a board director that you know, the workforce is changing, companies need to adjust to this and this is when the employee expectations. But one point I want to highlight here is by the our research at the Conference Board at the end of 2025, we expect 31% of the workforce to be Gen. Z and they have wildly different expectations of work than what has been perceived and expected in generations in the past. This is something that needs to come to the forefront. So whether that is culture, well-being, the purpose driven work, having an understanding of the role they play and their small task or smaller tasks in the bigger picture of the organization. So with that, I'm going to hand it over to Matt AI, our AI expert residential expert at the Conference Board. Yeah. So another area in which Chr OS, I think again, this role that we've been talking about how it's been expanding and elevating and since the pandemic and you know, even before that, but AI is another issue which is going to accelerate that and further broaden their, their horizon in the remit of the CHRO, just because it is so closely tied to workforce transformation. And then what that looks like, you know, I think the, the challenge is ensuring that, as you can see in the quote there, that HR has a seat at the table and AI decisions are being made. And many of the Ch OS I've talked to are part of their, their companies AI governance committee or whatever it may be that however they personally structure it within that organization. But there are many organizations in which HR is not part of those key decisions or, you know, coming in after the fact to kind of address and promulgate what IT or other leaders may have potentially developed. And I think it's important for HR to be involved from the beginning in those conversations about AI and just the potential, you know, ramifications for the workforce, for the organization as a whole, and also understanding the business strategy implications. What can you actually do if you are missing key talent? So in our C-Suite outlook, for instance, that came out earlier this year, lack of expertise was highlighted as one of the main barriers to AI implementations. And, and getting the most value out of AI. That is entirely within the the remit of the Cho to understand how do we bring that expertise either internal from or bring it in from the outside or develop people internally to have that expertise. So I think it's going to again accelerate the expansion and just kind of elevation of the Chr role moving forward. And that is a perfect example of where you could have a partnership between another C-Suite member working closely with the CHRO on that work. And with that, I'm going to have Andrew talk about our last point. Yeah. I mean, I think these two points you touched are so critical, right? I think the third, the Third Point slightly, slightly stepping back taking a broader thing, but it's still really important, right, which is just the general, I don't want to say unprecedented, but the escalating political, legal and regulatory incentive, which we now find ourselves and we all recognize that business right now both in the US and globally is navigating an exceptionally volatile landscape. And you obviously we're doing this, this webcast against the backdrop of rapid policy changes with with of sending shock waves to the global economy, right? And then I think more more generally, we're also in addition to this insanity, we're also seeing, you know, heightened rate scrutiny and inconsistent regulatory signals around all kinds of topics, right, that have human capital implications in like immigration, DI, you know, labor laws, AI that together mass point workforce disclosures in general, right? I think as well as just persistent, I think heightened litigation exposure as well on workforces. And all of this just requires boards and the seats, which just take on a much more proactive role, right? And we've heard in a lot of our interviews how much these topics are now just really dominating board agendas right now. I think clearly the Chr is just indispensable to addressing them effectively, right? And there's such a potentially critical role for the CHRL Chr to play in being like principal source of insights and data and advising on how to adapt to this and suddenly without destabilizing, you know, the culture and the workforce in the process, right? So, yeah, it's a it's difficult, it's challenging. You know, it's hard to see too far ahead right now three years and sounds a long way ahead right now. But I think is clearly, clearly there is such an opportunity to to to elevate your visibility and influence in the boardroom and and stay there, you know, for the festival. So yeah, I think, I think difficult times ahead, but also interesting times ahead from the perspective of the Ch Rs role in governance and strategy. And what a beautiful note to end on elevating visibility and the impact and as we navigate the road ahead. So with that, I've so enjoyed talking to both of you. This was tremendous research to work on over the last five months and we look forward, I look forward to continue to exploring this topic and seeing what happens as we navigate the year ahead. Let's move on. If we look at Slide 30, I just want to encourage all of our participants to take a look at our research. It was published this morning on our website and you can take a look at that report. Slide 31 jumps into the upcoming events with the ESG Center and the Human Capital Center, all of our webcast programming now through September. And lastly, we just wanted to encourage all of you to take a look at just move it to Slide 32, Alex navigating Washington. We are committed to providing the most up to date information for our members on what is taking place and how all of the elements of the organization are impacted by what's happening in Washington today in all of our centers, from the CEO to the CHRO, to the CFO to the CLO, to the Chief Marketing Officer. So we encourage you to take a look at that and engage with the Conference Board on those topics. If you are interested in hearing more about this research, please reach out to any of us. We would be thrilled to do a briefing for our members, whether it's your team or one of your councils. Thank you so much for joining us today. And this has been an addition of the Human Capital Watch. Thank you. Thank you so much and thanks Rita for moderating. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. _1745282343002